Documentary: 8 The Mormon Proposition

These are my notes and feelings as I watched the documentary.

I am 32 minutes in 8 and need a breather. All my original feelings of hearing the statement read in church are coming back. The pure anger and distrust, knowing it was not God even if they used his name. They used church records to call and tell, not ask, people how to vote. This alone is a total violation of trust and confidentiality. My husband got the call and it went like this. Very sweet woman's voice "Hello, is this Brother Courtney Jacobs?" He hesitated an said yes. She then started talking about the prop here in Arizona, it wasn't 8 here but same exact legislation. He hung up on her. He was angry. She called right back super cheery. "We got disconnected, I want to talk to you..." He said you need to stop talking for a minute. She said okay and he informed her he hung up because she and the church were out of line first calling him about politics and second telling people how to vote. She then tried to say that she wasn't using the ward list. He let her no there was NO doubt the only place she got his number and name was from church. She hurried off the phone. Just over a year later she came to us and apologized. That she was wrong. That she should not have lied and should never have agreed to make those phone calls. She had been pushed into it by church leaders and her husband. She knew it was wrong and not of God to make those phone calls but was and is not strong enough to say so to anyone. She is still a devote Mormon to this day. I don't know how you live something you know is wrong but that is her choice. I wish her the best. So far it is very accurate and that is why it is bringing up so many feelings. I will let you know about the next hour.

Okay it took about another minute to make me madder :/ lol gay marriage does not effect religious freedom. You do NOT have to let them be part of your religion. You already are very particular about your straight members entering the temple and holding positions. That argument doesn't work. If tomorrow they wanted to quit admitting African American's, as they did in the past, they would still be protected with that. The protection of religion is still standing. They have flat out lied in attempt to scare members into following.

Very Christ like to SCREAM at people how much God hates them. He may hate me but I don't think your position is very good either!

"Gay and lesbians can not have a child naturally so they are not a family." - Gayle Ruzicka

It is a slap in the face to not only gay families, because they are families, but to women that suffer from infertility! You are announcing that adoption in general does not a family make and you are wrong!

And these Mormon men are REALLY obsessed with talking about anal sex! I am sorry I can go on and on...obviously...

It is very accurate. Very emotional as an ex member. We are in the process not of having all our names removed from church records.

We are officially started on the looong road of having our names and our childrens names removed from LDS Church records. We have been going back and forth and we agree it is something we can no longer falter on. We want our kids to be loved and love without hate or judgement. For our children and for Henry Stuart Matis and people like him we will stand for what is right.

Standing for what you believe

You do not have to be against the Church to believe it is not true. I have been given the same lecture many times since learning the Church is not 100% true. As I mention in previous post I am not anti, I just can not accept that conditioning myself to make church activities (ie church meetings, church history and the temple)seem to be comforting and close to God. You shouldn't have to work that hard to have a relationship with God. You shouldn't have to create a feeling. If you already have your answer about the Church after pondering, praying,reading scripture and learning church history why would you continue to ask if it is true or not? I got my answer. However, since it did not go with the Church, members and leaders tell me to continue seeking until I get my right answer. I have to kindly decline this advice, since I do not want to create illusions and condition my body and brain to react in the way other see fit about the Church. I do not push anyone into praying about my way, so I deserve the same respect please.

An active Mormon's view on leaving the church

Beauty in Music

 Affirmation - Savage Garden



I believe the sun should never set upon an argument.
I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands.
I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you.
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do.
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self-esteem.
I believe I'm loved when I'm completely by myself, alone.

     I believe in Karma - what you give is what you get returned.
     I believe you can't appreciate real love till you've been burned.
     I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side.
     I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye.

I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality.
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy.
I believe your most attractive features are your heart and soul.
I believe that family is more important than money or gold.
I believe the struggle for financial freedom is unfair.
I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires.

     I believe in Karma - what you give is what you get returned.

     I believe you can't appreciate real love till you've been burned.

     I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side.

     I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye.

I believe forgiveness is the key to your unhappiness.

I believe that wedded bliss negates the need to be undressed.

I believe that God does not endorse TV evangelists.

I believe in love surviving death into eternity.

     I believe in Karma - what you give is what you get returned.

     I believe you can't appreciate real love till you've been burned.

     I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side.

     I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

Who did Joseph Smith see in the 'First Vision'?

I started researching on LDS.org and I found an Ensign article that caught my attention.

I can not help but agree with what this General Authority had to day on the matter. I believe fully if you say Heavenly Father and the Son of God wouldn't you get the details correct? I have to say I myself have had vivid dreams that have come to pass and it was just as the dream. So if just a dream can stay with me in detail I con not imagine that seeing God and the Lord would be forgettable.

S. Dilworth Young, Improvement Era, June 1957, p. 436. Report of April 1957 General Conference. Available online here. Young was a senior member of the First Council of the Seventy, and one of the General Authorities.

"I cannot remember the time when I have not heard the story,…concerning the coming of the Father and the Son to the Prophet Joseph Smith... I am concerned however with one item which has recently been called to my attention on this matter. There appears to be going about our communities some writing to the effect that the Prophet Joseph Smith evolved his doctrine from what might have been a vision, in which he is supposed to have said that he saw an angel, instead of the Father and the Son. According to this theory, by the time he was inspired to write the occurrence in 1838, he had come to the conclusion that there were two beings. This rather shocked me. I can see no reason why the Prophet, with his brilliant mind, would have failed to remember in sharp relief every detail of that eventful day. I can remember quite vividly that in 1915 I had a mere dream, and while the dream was prophetic in nature, it was not startling. It has been long since fulfilled, but I can remember every detail of it as sharply and clearly as though it had happened yesterday. How them could any man conceive that the Prophet, receiving such a vision as he received, would not remember it and would fail to write it clearly, distinctly, and accurately?” - S. Dilworth Young

Not only did he change who he saw he changed the fact that he saw God and the Lord separately (which is the version the LDS currently uses). However, if you read in the Scriptures God and the Son are talked about as one. Take this scriptures;

Mosiah 15: 1, 2, 5   "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son... And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation..."

Ether 3:14 "Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light... they shall become my sons and my daughters."

They way these read to me as that they are one in the same. However, that is not what the Church currently teaches. What changed? Why did Joseph Smith say it was both when it clearly could only be one.

Another potential evidence that Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son in 1820, to those who believe in the restoration of the Priesthood, is the fact that in the year 1832 Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood. This revelation is published as Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In verses 21-22 we read:

"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

"For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live."

Now, it is claimed that "The Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith before the Church was organized and the priesthood restored to the earth" (Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, vol. 1, p.4).

Below is a link to an article in the Ensign addressing that there is indeed different versions of the 'First Vision'. 

http://lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng

Being that the entire church is based on this 'First Vision' and what Joseph Smith taught as Gospel, how can you explain the difference in a valid logical way. To some they may be able to. For me I feel that it means Joseph Smith's decisions were man made and not made of God.

Moroni and the Mormons;

The name was also published in the 1851 edition of the Pearl of Great Price as "Nephi." ("He called me by name and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." (Pearl of Great Price, 1851 edition, page 41) The original handwritten manuscript of the PofGP dictated by Joseph Smith reveals that the name was originally written as "Nephi," but that someone at a later date has written the word " Moroni" above the line. All evidence indicates that this change was made after Joseph Smiths death.

Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt "published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place" (Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price, typed copy, p.125).

Why was it changed from what Joseph Smith said himself which is Nephi. Why is it Moroni and why is Moroni the one on so many temples if it was indeed Nephi who brought this message?

Once a devout member learns these and other discrepancies where does that leave others and myself?

Once this happens to you...

• You never look at Joseph Smith the same way again
• You never look at scripture the same way again
• You never look at the church the same way again
• You never think of "authority" the same way again
• Your concept of God and Jesus and "the one true church" can change dramatically

I am not saying any that believes it is wrong. Frankly now of us were there and did not hear it for ourselves. If you are okay with the discrepancies then that is between you and God. I am not going to tell you that what you feel is wrong. You NEED to go with your spiritual guidance, for there is no other solid evidence to each of us. Use your prayer and be open to Heavenly Father. That is what I have done and I feel very close to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

If polygomy was re-instated today in the Church.

I can not help but wonder what would happen if polygamy was re-instated as a commandment of God. Would the members just agree with the practice? I have to be honest this has always been something I did not understand. When women are suppose to be 'so special' and yet I can be one of many? That makes me not special in my logical terms. I am a little frustrated that I was taught in Church and Seminary that this was a condition of exaltation. Then as I researched the Church on LDS.org I found this to have been changed in modern day. If it was commanded by God would God just change his mind?

Below is some of the information I have found about Joseph Smith stating it was a commandment of God and is a condition of exaltation. As well as modern day Prophets saying it is not a condition of exaltation. If they both are getting their information from God who is right? Is it an uncertainty? Then why the complete opposite statements?

First I found this hymn of the Joseph Smith Era

• "Now, sisters, list to what I say:
  With trials this world is rife,
  You can't expect to miss them all,
  Help husband get a wife!
• "Now, this advice I freely give,
  If exalted you would be,
  Remember that your husband must
  Be blessed with more than thee.
• "Then, O, let us say,
  God bless the wife that strives
  And aids her husband all she can
  T' obtain a dozen wives."

This made me feel upset and like women are not special in any manner. Others may not feel this way and I am not saying that others need to agree. This is my personal feeling on the hymn. It did not feel the same as a hymn of goodness such as "I know that my Redeemer lives" I always feel a closeness to God and Christ with this hymn. I believe that is the feeling a church hymn should invoke.

Now for the facts. You do not have to take them as fact but I do suggest you do your own research to know what the Church is saying.

What Joseph Smith taught of Celestial marriage;

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259


What I have been taught (right or wrongly by Church leaders and authorities)

I was always told it was the way of the world in Joseph Smith's time and that it was not illegal. I was also taught that it was because the women that had been widowed needed the name of marriage to protect and provide for them.  Since there were not enough men in the area.


The Census records show that there being more women than men is not accurate.

The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church. Indeed, the excess in Utah has usually been larger than for the whole United States, as would be expected in a pioneer state. The births within the Church obey the usual population law - a slight excess of males.


An example from the U.S. Census records, which Elder Widtsoe referred to, indicates that in 1840 there were 5,169 males and 4,762 females in Hancock County, Illinois (Nauvoo being the primary population center). Counting just those persons between the ages of 15 and 40, there were 2,067 men and 1,828 women. 1850 Census information for Utah records 6,020 males and 5,310 females.

Polygamy was illegal:

Polygamists in striped prison uniforms, including George Q. Cannon (center with cane), William Gimbert Saunders (second from right), and William Morley Black (right of Cannon with white beard). These men were also known as "Prisoners of Conscience."

Why were these people, including First Presidency counselor George Q. Cannon in prison for practicing polygamy? Because polygamy was illegal.

Note: the photo is from an LDS supplementary lesson manual titled 'My Kingdom Shall Roll Forth: Readings In Church History', 1979, pages 53-60 deal with polygamy

Lorenzo Snow's testimony in the "Temple Lot Case", pp. 320-322:

"A man that violated this law in the Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 edition, until the acceptance of that revelation by the church, violated the law of the church if he practiced plural marriage. Yes sir, he would have been cut off from the church, I think I should have been if I had. Before the giving of that revelation in 1843 if a man married more wives than one who were living at the same time, he would have been cut off from the church. It would have been adultery under the laws of the church and under the laws of the state, too."

Joseph took many plural wives in secret before 1843. And of course polygamy was illegal after 1843 as well as before1843 as President Snow stated.

Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith

Wife	Date	Age	Husband*
Emma Hale	Jan 1827	22
Fanny Alger	1833	16
Lucinda Morgan Harris	1838	37	George W. Harris
Louisa Beaman	Apr 1841	26
Zina Huntington Jacobs	Oct 1841	20	Henry Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell	Dec 1841	31	Norman Buell
Agnes Coolbrith	Jan 1842	33
Sylvia Sessions Lyon	Feb 1842	23	Windsor Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner	Feb 1842	23	Adam Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions	Mar 1842	47	David Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde	Apr 1842	27	Orson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee	Jun 1842	50	Jabez Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland	Jun 1842	53	John Cleveland
Delcena Johnson	Jul 1842	37
Eliza R. Snow	Jun 1842	38
Sarah Ann Whitney	Jul 1842	17
Martha McBride Knight	Aug 1842	37
Ruth Vose Sayers	Feb 1843	33	Edward Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth	Spring 1843	16
Emily Dow Partridge	Mar 1843	19
Eliza Maria Partridge	Mar 1843	22
Almera Johnson	Apr 1843	30
Lucy Walker	May 1843	17
Sarah Lawrence	May 1843	17
Maria Lawrence	May 1843	19
Helen Mar Kimball	May 1843	14
Hanna Ells	Mid 1843	29
Elvira Cowles Holmes	Jun 1843	29	Jonathan Holmes
Rhoda Richards	Jun 1843	58
Desdemona Fullmer	Jul 1843	32
Olive Frost	Mid 1843	27
Melissa Lott	Sep 1843	19
Nancy Winchester	1843	14
Fanny Young	Nov 1843	56
* Living Husband at the time of Marriage to Joseph Smith

I was very upset when I got down to the 14 year old girl, she was a mere child. Then I read parts of her journal and I was in tears. My heart poured out to her. Then I read other exerts from many of the women that felt forced to live this way. I just can not believe that the most loving Heavenly Father would want all females to be sad and feel like if they suffer through the polygamy it may prove worth it in the end.

Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated. (William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May; see Smith, pp. 105-106)

Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." (Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.)

At this time, Helen was not a happy new bride for Joseph Smith, but a girl that had fallen into depression. She wrote in a poem:

...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland'rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor'd heart in thy gen'rous sacrafise,
Thou dids't not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o'er thou'st doom'd also to be
Bar'd out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o'er thy sad'nd mem'ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken'd heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou'lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

Does that sound to you like Helen was blessed with the spirit of joy for giving herself to Joseph Smith? Where does that fit into the Plan of Salvation? Where are the scriptures or revelations to back that up?
However, Helen seems to have accepted her fate and the poem finishes as follows:

But could'st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father's aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who've died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I'd been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father's mouth,
I should ne'r have received it as God's sacred truth.

Helen Mar Kimball
Mormon Polygamy: A History, p. 53

Emma was very much against polygamy. Her story is told in the pro-LDS book: Mormon Enigma. When asked where the doctrine of 'spiritual wifery' came from she responded 'straight from the devil'. After Joseph died, she remarried a non-Mormon and had nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy again. Mormon Enigma

In the July 1838 edition of the Elder's Journal ("Edited by Joseph Smith") Joseph Smith answered some questions including the following:

"Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?
"Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practiced among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion.
"We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children."

(Elder's Journal, Vol 1, No. 3, p 43; reprinted in History of the Church Vol 3, p 38)

"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." - 12th Article of Faith, written by the Prophet Joseph Smith

 Then why would he have practice an illegal act. It goes against the teachings in the 12th article of faith.

Mary Ann Angell

"God will be very cruel if he does not give us poor women adequate compensation for the trials we have endured in polygamy."
-Mary Ann Angell Young, Brigham Young's second wife

This is one of the most disturbing things I have come across in my research.

"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp 129-130. Original source: The New York Times, April 17, 1860

Yes, he really just stated he want a 'fair shake' at these women. This brings up a lot of feelings, non of which are good! It is sick and has nothing to do with love. When you read the writings and comments of these women, they found it a burden. That none felt good or special.

My conclusion:

This confirms to me I was not meant to be one of many. That I can not believe a father would want such treatment of his daughter(s).

I personally cannot think I am not important enough to be the only one. I cannot believe that God wanted my husband to have plural marriages either on earth or in Heaven. That would make 'Heaven' a hell for me. I think God knows I am more special than that. You do not have to agree I am just trying to be open about how I am feeling. I have had a problem with this as long as I remember. I have not changed my beliefs. I have just gotten a better understanding of what the church doctrine says and it doesn't fit my beliefs. It is okay if it fits yours.  

 

The first step, speaking up.

First I want to say that I was raised in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I had parents that had converted to the religion right before they had me. Why I was never really taught about Gospel in the home I was very aware that we were Mormon. I can recall my first feeling of uncertainty, I was 8 and was sitting alone with my Bishop for my baptism interview. I remember not really understanding what he was saying. I just agreed with all he had to say because I did not want to be in trouble. Now when I look back I see a frighten child making a huge decision and having no idea. I wanted my parents to be proud and not to punish me for questioning them. The Church was not the only instance of this to be fair. This is how I was for the most things most of my life. I was always worried to let people down. I wanted everyone to be happy and not be the reason for unhappiness. Even now I don't want to attach myself to this blog and yet have a need to get out my feelings and feel a lifted burden. With that said this is what I believe.

My testimony of God:

I believe in God the eternal Father. I believe that Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins and he is our exaltation. I believe in the Holy Ghost and the spiritual guidance that is offered. I believe they are three personages, not one. Just as we are all separate.I believe that all the work we do in a marriage and a family on earth is not wasted. I believe we can be a family in the life beyond this one. I can not comprehend what the purpose of this life would be if it did not carry over. I believe if you are a good person, you are honest in your dealings with others and you strive to be kind then it will all be okay in the end.

For eight years, since the day I was endowed in the Temple of the LDS Church. While the general feeling that is calm and peace (because everyone is quiet and it is decorated beautifully) I did not feel closer to God. I actually had an opposing feeling. Now being taught in the Gospel you are suppose to go with the burning of the bosom. That is what I have done. For 8 years I have tried to understand and find a comfort with what I went through. However, since you can not utter what happens in the Temple outside the Temple I have carried a heavy burden. I have talked with members about Gospel, I have spent hours talking to missionaries and I have prayed with an open heart. I was never looking against the Church. The opposite actually.

I finally found the information I needed to confirm to me and my husband (who was also raised in the Church). We had feelings of affirmation that while there is nothing really bad about the Church. They actually teach wonderful things in no means am I saying this is a bad religion. I am just saying it is not the religion for me. I am fairly sure there is no organized religion for me which I am okay with. I think most churches teach good things and make good points. However, I can not see how man could possibly have all the knowledge of the Heavens. I just don't think we could even comprehend the magnitude of what eternal life is.

I have many family members and friends that would be lost or living undesirable life without the Church. So for them I am grateful they have what they need. I am also quite thankful for the Church's welfare program. It is quite amazing when used properly. The unfortunate thing that I believe that sometimes they turn away good people who are working hard and need a little help. While I have seen many horrible people be assisted continually and this bothers me. I feel that it almost rewards them for the way they are living. This is 100% my view and I am not attempting to claim my views as Gospel.